Episode 2: Being a mindful therapist

Hi Claire, good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too. So good to be back doing this. I love these moments of connection and just talking about all things psych.

Yes, me too. I know we've been preparing for these episodes for a while now, and some of the conversations we've had in the past on Zoom, I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so excited for when we finally get to record this for real." And here we are, yay! Okay, so tell the people, what are we going to be talking about today?

So today we're going to be talking about what is it like to be a psychologist and really, is it weird to like this work? Because, you know, we spend a lot of our time listening to people that maybe have quite distressing stories, sometimes traumatic stories. And yet, when I reflect on my journey, I actually really enjoy this work. And when I think about enjoying that, I can't say I enjoy that in terms of enjoying the distress, but what is it we get from this work? And yeah, I just thought this would be a pretty rich topic for us to open up, and hopefully one that people can resonate with.

Absolutely. I think for me, being, I guess, practising for around five or six years, I still feel like I'm relatively new to this profession. And I still have moments where I think about the day that I've had. I spend the day talking to people, hearing their stories, and being very present with them. And I just think, "Wow, it's such a privilege to do this job." But we're holding a lot, a lot of the time. And I don't have any close friends who are also in this field, so they will often be curious about, like, "Wow, Isabelle, you really... you do this thing where you talk to people and you help people?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I do. Am I weird? Is it weird to want to be a therapist?"

I can totally relate to that as well, because it is a different type of work. We spend all day talking to people, and yet we can't really talk about our work outside of work. And you know, unless we're in a supervision setting or a peer consultation type setting, a lot of it we have to keep to ourselves. But I do really like this work. And I remember writing a bio and having somebody look over it, and I'd said that I enjoy this work and I work in trauma. And they said to me, "You know, enjoying working with people who've experienced trauma just sounds a little strange." And I said, "Well, yeah, I'm not sure I actually, as I said just now, enjoy the process of hearing this information. But there's something incredibly rewarding about being witness to this, but also, as you say, an incredible privilege to be able to support people with this information. Often, people are coming to us, they haven't spoken to anybody about this before, and to be entrusted with that information, yes, it is a privilege. But as you say, there is also a weight to that as well." Yeah, it's a lot of things all rolled into one. Yeah, and for our listeners, especially anyone who's still learning or in training, in those earlier years, this is, in particular, this development process of working out who we are as a professional and how we hold this information, how we carry ourselves through the day, and then in our personal lives, it's a big transition to make. And again, the perceptions of maybe our family members or friends around us about what we do, even handling questions from them about what we do, there's a lot of murky waters. But at the same time, hopefully, if it's a profession that fits us well, we're also getting an incredible amount of satisfaction and joy from what we do.

Oh, absolutely. And there are moments, you know, of joy and parts of the work that are incredibly enjoyable, particularly when you might reach a particular point with somebody and really get to reflect on some progress. When you get to sort of work through particularly some quite difficult material, that can be incredibly rewarding and so satisfying. But also just knowing that person's going out into the world, they are a different person as a result of some of the work. And I think when I reflect on that, that's why I want to do this, that's what I'm hoping for in terms of being able to support and facilitate some type of positive change for people. They're doing the work, I can't take credit for them, but being witness to that and feeling that.

I have a question for you. I'm just going to throw it out there. Do you remember when you realized you wanted to be a therapist? Like, when you realized you wanted to do the talking therapy thing? For me, I used to watch, it's funny, I remember being quite young, I mean, in my teens, and I would watch movies of therapists and think, "Gee, that looks like such an interesting thing to do." But I don't think in my mind I conceptualized what that path would ever look like. And so I went to uni, did my Psych degree, which wasn't initially my first choice, but I'm so glad that I went into Psychology, and then I in the UK, and then I moved to Australia. It was here that I realized I could do the internship program. At that point, I just took anything I could get. I worked in organizational psychology to start with, just to get myself in the door. But I knew that eventually, yes, it was doing PFS and Ravens and all of those assessments that I sort of see people looking at on the MP checklist and think, "Gosh, they've been around for years." And I knew that was going to provide me with the stepping stones to get to this. But I didn't know how it was going to happen. And through that pathway, of course, you're required to do a level of counselling training and interventions. And I think when I got to that point, I just went, "Yes, I'm here. I found where I want to be, and I'm here. I'm not going to deviate from this path now." And because that's lovely got there. So, tell me about your story.

Yeah, and this has come up recently. That's why I asked you. A couple of my colleagues and I, we were talking about how we came to be doing this. And it made me think about my journey and how, I think, I knew, similar to you, I think I saw or heard about psychology work or therapy work. Maybe my Mum explained to me, "You know what a psychologist is? A psychologist is a person who sits and talks and helps people." And I remember thinking, "Oh, that sounds all right. I like that." I was so young then. And then as I got older, those ideas disappeared, and I went on a completely different path. And I never imagined I would end up a psychologist until I was at uni, and I was just doing my undergrad Bachelor of Arts. And I had to choose two majors, and I was looking at the options and going, "Oh, God, psychology. I think I want to do it, but I don't want to do it. It's going to be so hard. I'm going to have to really look at myself. It's going to open my eyes to a lot of things." I was scared. And it was actually my Mum on the phone to me one day saying, "Isabelle, it's psychology. You're doing psychology." I was like, "Okay, Mom, okay. Let's do this. Let's see what comes of it." And I fell in love. It was really an instant thing, I think. Just learning about research and writing essays on different topics, I was totally enthralled. And so, you know, it just kind of went from there. I just winged it, and somehow it worked out. I'm so glad it did because I do feel like I found the thing that I could do now for the rest of my life.

Yes, that's exactly how I felt. This is me now, and this is the path I'm on. And whereas there had been a little bit of chopping and changing, I had always worked. When I reflect on it, I had actually always worked in mental health, but as a support worker. And I'd seen people that saw psychologists, but I knew that they had more than the psychology degree that I had, and I just wasn't sure what I needed to get there. Even as a new graduate, it's difficult, I think, to sometimes get access to the information, which is partly why I became a supervisor. Is that right?

Yeah, because I managed to somehow find the information when I moved to Australia, because people were asking me about my background and my psychology degree. And so I managed to work the system out. But I realized how confusing it can be with the 4 plus 2, which of course is being retired, but then the 5 plus one was introduced, and then the Masters, and what that really looks like, and then how do we even do that? I felt that because I'd had to work that out for myself, I really wanted to support other people who didn't have to kind of DIY it in a way like I did.

So I'm loving hearing you talk about this, Claire, because not only are you reflecting on what made you want to become a psychologist, you had those experiences where you were seeing other people or hearing about other people doing that psychology work, but then through your experiences that drove you also to then want to, I guess, mentor and supervise people through that process as well. So it's that passing on of that knowledge because you were once that person who didn't know but wanted to know.

Absolutely, yes, because you know there is always that point where we're not sure, and you know it's not for everybody. But I think it's also about supporting people early on to determine whether or not that is what they want, and getting a sense of whether they are going in the direction because there's so many different directions we can go in in this field as well. And it's not always... It's one of the things I love about having taken this part because I am a bit of a weird person in that I like to try and keep myself really broad in my practice. I had this early sense that people were complicated, and I just thought, "Yeah, I don't want to just only know about anxiety or only depression or only drug and alcohol or paranoid or mental health." I thought, because we can have all of these things all at once or over the course of our lives, and if I only understand one, then I don't know if I'm going to feel comfortable in that space only understanding one really well. So, uh, yeah, that was my experience. Yes, I think there can be some pressure to niche quite early, and in some ways, I think we fall into those areas of interest. Well, some of us do fall into those areas of interest whereby we might end up with clients presenting with particular issues, it just sort of snowballs from there, and that's certainly what happened with me because I do a lot of work in trauma. But, like you say, it crosses over so many different areas. Of course, people with trauma history sometimes present with depression and anxiety symptoms. They can present with dissociation, disordered eating, and substance use. We also need to be knowledgeable about those other presentations to treat them effectively. Going in broad initially can be very helpful, and then when we want to do a particular type of work, we can niche down. But often, particularly in more general private practice, there could be any range of presentations, depending on your location. For example, if you're in a rural area, there might be fewer practitioners, requiring a broader range of knowledge to support people. It's good to reflect on our experiences and the pros of niching, but also how it's helpful to keep a broad level of skills and knowledge to support our clients effectively. Absolutely. I love what you said about having so much choice and variety.

This is also what I love about this profession because I can do a little bit of psychometric assessment, supervision, therapy work, and run groups, all under the same umbrella. The variety is quite unique to the profession. Then, there are also all the different types of organizations we can work with, providing talking therapy. We can make it fit us, aligning with our personalities, values, and biases. If we find that we're in a spot that doesn't align with our values or fits our personalities, we can evaluate and find a better fit. There are so many options out there. For those in positions that don't feel like a good fit, I encourage them to reflect on why they chose psychology in the first place. There are many different options, and it doesn't have to fit a particular mold. Often, we have a preconceived idea of what that mold is, but it's different for everybody. I encourage people to think about what they want and how they can find something more aligned for them. There's a lot out there. In the beginning, it can be tricky, especially during training when we're focused on specific experiences. Paid internships are more available now, but it can still be challenging to see beyond that. So, I definitely give hope to those feeling lost or stuck. I’m unsure what to add to that..., thinking about what is unique to you. What can you offer as a result of your own unique personality and your own unique experiences? And just because maybe in the workplace that you're in right now, it's feeling like you're not getting to, uh, I guess, utilize those unique experiences and skills that only you have, there doesn't mean that there won't be other workplaces or teams or opportunities where you will fit really well, where you will be a great fit for clients of that area or that population. And don't forget that, because certainly, I do feel as though through my program of training, we were, uh, I guess, being modeled to a certain mould and, you know, to address a certain way, to behave a certain way, which is important. You know, we do need to follow the guidelines, the ethical guidelines. But certainly, we were given the impression that we had to sort of fit a certain mold, even having a lived experience of our own mental health challenges or family members with mental health challenges. You know, I remember feeling not so comfortable about sharing those sorts of experiences because I wanted to fit into this mould of being this professional person who didn't have any baggage, who was going to follow the guidelines and was going to do everything like this and like this and like this. And underneath, being terrified of, 'Oh my God, if I really show them who I am, who I really am, are they going to think, 'Oh, Isabelle is not suitable' or, you know, 'She has lived experience' and things like that? It was really scary. It's probably only in the last couple of years that I've started to really feel comfortable in myself and feel like it's okay to be my unique, quirky, weird person that I am. Yeah, you've raised so many important points there because we are all very unique, and also, we are, you know, it's almost a little bit of a contradiction between being encouraged to sort of fit this mould and be so professional and yet also be really authentic in order to develop this connection with our clients. Yes, oh, absolutely. And the more authentic you are, like, our clients are not silly, and especially, you know, with trauma and things like that, people are so good at working out if you're full of it or not. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I think when you talk about dress, I think that it depends on the setting. Now, if you're in a corporate setting, you're probably expected to dress in that corporate, you know, and wear the suits and the business shirts; that's probably what's expected. But if you're in a private practice, it probably depends on your clients because if you're working with kids, I'd want to be getting down on the floor with them, so I'd want to be comfortable and in comfortable clothes, it's got to be practical. Absolutely. And if you're working with teens, you know, it depends on, you know, sometimes even visible tattoos can be, actually, in terms of the clients that you're working with, as long as that's a good fit. You know, if you're working with older people and you go and dressed too casually, then that might not be the best fit. But if you're working with teens, then you don't want to be presenting in business, you want to be presenting arty. And so, I think that we've got to be ourselves and also think about how we can support the people that we're working with so that that can feel aligned and connected. And I do think that it's possible that we don't have to hide too much of ourselves.

You talk about lived experience, I mean, that could be a whole other episode because, you know, there is so much stigma around mental health, which we are in the business of trying to combat in so many ways. And yet, in our profession, there's such a fear. And yet, of course, we come with our own histories, and of course, there's a level of anxiety and there's a level of fear and there's a level of impostor syndrome that actually is quite universal in the profession. And I think in that way, it is quite unique as well, like choosing to, I think if we break down some of the things that we're choosing to do, we can see why people might think it's a little bit weird choice, but yeah, because there are so many different factors. But I think we can—I mean, I'm all for sort of molding the work to fit as much as we possibly can within these, that we professionally and legally sort things, all those things like personal disclosure, where does where does where do we draw the line there? And those sorts of questions again, that could be a whole another episode, which we probably will get to at some point. But yeah, these things all come into it. And I think what you said is right, is right on the money, what you said about having molding the work to fit us, but within the constraints that are then around us, yeah, so that we're still professional, we're still ethical, we're doing the best that we're doing the best for our clients. Our clients are actually receiving evidence-based treatment. They are, they are hopefully feeling better as a result of seeing us. And you know, then we're, you know, we're reflecting and doing our own supervision, all that stuff comes into it. But yeah, the authenticity, being okay to be ourselves, our own weird unique selves, finding the place where we fit.

I think, yeah, that hopefully, these themes ring true for anyone who's listening to us today, certainly rings true for me. Yes, I think it's a really interesting topic to unpack because it is such a unique profession. And I think some of the questions that I particularly, and I'm sure you're the same, get asked by people, you know, what's it like to do what you do? You know, what's it like to listen to people all day? You know, do you take that home with you at the end of the day? You know, and then, you know, who do you talk to about these things? Lots and lots of questions. Or the other one is, the classic one is, uh, I better watch what I'm saying because you might be analyzing me right now. Oh my gosh, if I could have a dollar for every time someone has said that and it catches me off guard, I'm kind of like, why would I be analyzing you right now? I'm not at work, thank you very much. And I'm going to try and not think about this too much now about why you may have asked me about it's like it switches it on as well, you're like, oh, shut up, shut up, yeah, absolutely. Because I think in some ways, you know, I, we're taught to listen, so I don't think that once that sort of skill becomes quite inbuilt and we become used to being attuned to people, then that's with us. So what, when I'm having a conversation with people, I have to say I do prefer in some ways that one-on-one, that one-on-one connectedness, because then I can really connect with somebody. And so the skills I think that we're using in the counseling room, we're often using outside as well. We're not going to stop using that. And when someone wants, some, I don't like the word advice, but if somebody asks about something and you've got kind of theory or concept around it, you're going to share that in a way that you would, you know, with anything that you know about, if it's general, you know, when are you off duty is quite a fine sometimes the skills that we use at work, we're probably always using. I actually kind of feel a bit better that you've said that because I've definitely noticed that about myself and how I interact with people on a social level, one-on-one, but also in groups, you know, on weekends, catch up for dinners or birthdays and things like that. I've noticed a change in myself, how I was before I trained compared to how I am now having been doing this for a little while. And yeah, I think my style of interaction is definitely different. I can't exactly describe how, but I have a feeling that I might be a bit quiet now. I feel like I do listen quite a bit more. And I and I'm definitely a lot more of a moderated version of myself, yeah, you know, I don't I don't I don't get too rowdy or loud. I think I think I used to be pretty outgoing, but now I'm just like, yep, just quiet, just like to listen. But also as well, I guess I'm always uh, looking out for wanting to sort of maintain a boundary around not stepping into work mode as well. I guess I'm being really careful to moderate the conversations that I have so that it's in a neutral sort of relaxed where I get to enjoy myself experience. Because of course, if someone does bring up mental health or asking specific questions about themselves, I want to be careful to make sure that I'm I'm still able to enjoy my experience and not become not going into full-on work mode. But I definitely do love, I do love the person that I've become as a psychologist. You're right, I don't switch that off. And I do love sharing stuff with people. If someone asked me about something, it happened the other day, someone asked me about something psychology related, and I was like, oh, how did you hear about that, yada, yada, and it was great, but it was that's where it went, that that's where it finished. It didn't go beyond that. And it was, it was nice to maybe almost have someone maybe understand or be curious a little bit about what I do. Yeah, it was nice. Yes, because so often when people ask about the work, they're often asking about what it's like because I think they're curious about what it's like to sit in the room with somebody, whereas like you say, it's lovely when somebody actually asks you about a theory of something or, you know, asks you a little bit about information, what books would be good to read on something. And that's the sort of information I think we can very easily and ethically share with people. We want people to feel that they can access resources and information without feeling stepping into work mode. But in a way, I really enjoy that because of course, it is unusual sometimes to be to be able to speak about what we do because we can't really speak about what we actually do unless it's very broad, more sort of conceptual terms around our work field and this is what I'm interested in. But you can't talk actually what happens in the day. Okay, so something you mentioned before Claire, around that heaviness that we sometimes feel as a result of what we do. I mean, you and I have been painting this lovely joyful picture about how it's changed us and how much we love it. But in reality, we're off, we are often coming home feeling pretty tired most days and like we don't really want to, you know, engage too much at all. And I don't—I'd be interested in your perspective, but in terms of like what I want to watch on television or what want to read, I find that sometimes I'm really just looking for something that's very light and you know, I'll look at I'll get on Netflix and I look and I think, oh, that it reminds me too much of something heavy "And so, I'm looking for something light and easy and doesn't take too much of my brainpower to work out. Yes, I think for me, the trashier the better. Most definitely, I, as far away from any sort of serious talk about any human-related things, is where I want to be after a long day at work. But just reflecting, I guess, on that balance of: we do this work, we spend most of our day listening to people, giving from our resources, how do we refill our own resources? So for anybody listening here, and I think really resonating with the fact that this job is really quite unique and the fact that we do it does hold both some joyful components and rewarding components but also quite a lot of weight and responsibility.

One of the things that I always recommend is having some support with peers who get it, who understand it because other therapists, even if it's other Provisionals, and reaching out for support in that way, I think, will get that challenge without you having to explicitly explain that. I think sometimes when we explain what we do to people like, you know, 'I provide one-on-one therapy,' there might be this sort of perception of me sitting in an armchair just chatting to people all day, and of course, that is reality, but it's so much more than that that's required. And so I think not everybody, our friends and family, may not get the job as it really is, and yet other therapists, they just somehow they know they're living it. And so always recommend to have some peer support, even our formal supervision where you can just tell someone how your day was, give them a course day, yeah, and that debrief that is difficult to get from somebody not in the profession.

Yeah, oh, thank you for sharing that, Claire, because, uh, now that you're talking about it, I can certainly think of days where I've had a peer outside of my workplace who I may not even be doing formal supervision with but who is a fellow therapist, sometimes psychologists and sometimes not, and it's just like, 'Oh my gosh, this happened today, can we talk about it in a de-identified manner, in a confidential manner?' There is a shared understanding that we both have that responsibility, confidentiality, but just being able to go, 'Wow, like, that was big, that was heavy, that was a lot, whatever it might be.' Yes, I think that some days if I came home and I didn't do that, I probably would have been carrying some of that through the rest of that night. So yeah, such a great suggestion, thank you, Claire.

It's well, we need support as well, you know, we're in the business of supporting people, and it's, I think, it often gets overlooked. I don't know how much emphasis there is in the training, not the university training, around our own self-care, around impostor-ing and burnout and vicarious trauma and all those we hold that, yes, oh, we could do a whole episode on vicarious trauma as therapists, yeah. So these are all really good things for us to keep in mind on our journey at whatever point of the journey that we are on. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Thank you, Claire, for being here with me. Thank you, Isabelle. It's great to be here, and we look forward to tuning in again. Yeah, thank you, everyone, have a wonderful day, we'll see you soon, bye."